- Thread starter Beefcake
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Djeryv
Member
They didn't mention anything about the perceived level of "care" Broadsword has for their IP and stating that Broadsword doesn't care is a huge assumption unless you can point me to an interview with a Broadsword official on how they feel about the emulation community. They did mention, however, that they want to make a game "without" their IP.
So perhaps Beefcake can elaborate to get a more thought out response. Because the very statement of "specifically without Broadsword's IP" makes me assume they plan to market it.
So perhaps Beefcake can elaborate to get a more thought out response. Because the very statement of "specifically without Broadsword's IP" makes me assume they plan to market it.
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Djeryv
Member
Just because lawsuits were not filed, doesn't mean they don't care. You are making assumptions without evidence. I don't know if they care...just as you don't know that they "don't care". Maybe this link will help you get a feel for Broadsword's thoughts on emulators: https://uo.com/2012/09/10/tickets-for-customer-support/
But again, that is not the subject of this thread. All we know currently is that Beefcake wants to make a Ultima game without Broadsword's IP.
But again, that is not the subject of this thread. All we know currently is that Beefcake wants to make a Ultima game without Broadsword's IP.
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Dropgunner
Member
As said in the other thread I am gathering a group of people for achieving that. Hit me up on Discord : https://discord.gg/m8VGV8r
Beefcake
Member
I'm just assuming Broadsword doesn't care about the freeshards which aren't competing for their subscription-base, which are 99% of the freeshards, or charging for freeshard content or selling their IP (or have in some form made money from their IP). We all know nobody here has the money to give up to Broadsword in a lawsuit.
Said, what exactly constitutes Broadsword's IP? Is the storyline: lack of storyline, this amounts to mere justification for Broadsword's multiple available shards and in-game roleplay. Is the art: merely out-dated pixel-art, gump compositions, and 2D-dimensional animations, and textile art consisting of ingame map/world? All the code to reproduce this game is right there, but what exactly would need to be modified and what exactly would need to be recreated to no longer be considered Broadsword's IP?
Said, what exactly constitutes Broadsword's IP? Is the storyline: lack of storyline, this amounts to mere justification for Broadsword's multiple available shards and in-game roleplay. Is the art: merely out-dated pixel-art, gump compositions, and 2D-dimensional animations, and textile art consisting of ingame map/world? All the code to reproduce this game is right there, but what exactly would need to be modified and what exactly would need to be recreated to no longer be considered Broadsword's IP?
Djeryv
Member
The entire client is still EA's. They just let Broadsword run the UO line for them. EA didn't give up any IP rights to UO...at least that is what the press releases stated. Any nuances about what belongs to EA or Broadsword in that mix...is something only they know between each other.
So if you don't want to violate copyright and/or trademark law, you would have nothing to do with the client at all.
The server requires MUL files to load for maps, but these can be made from scratch with Centred+ and do not require anything from the client.
What I am not sure about is the MUL file format since I have not seen it anywhere else. Is that proprietary?
ClassicUO (as an example of a freely developed client by independent folks) does not contain UO Client files but it needs them to function...or files "like" them. Which files from the client? I don't know for sure...but the developer would.
To be clear, none of this can be marketed by you. I know you didn't mention anything about making any sort of profit...but I am just throwing it in there.
The things I am mentioning here are not things we need lawyers to spell out in black and white. These are the basics of what you can't do in regards to legality. You can't touch the UO client...it is that simple. You have to recreate all of the files required for something like ClassicUO to function (again, I am using ClassicUO as an example of a non-EA/OSI/Broadsword client...and there is also CrossUO).
So all of those graphics for gumps, tiles, and items belongs to EA (and perhaps some to Broadsword). You can recreate something similar, however.
If you also avoid EA's client, you don't only avoid IP issues but also software piracy issues for unauthorized access to the software.
Many of these issues come down to the world not being able to police the rules they laid out for virtual items. If we own a DVD and rip it to a file and put it on the Plex server...then we are in the wrong. It is just a matter of reading those agreements we accept...you know...the ones we just click OK to get past. We simply do these types of things because so far the world has taught us that there are other things more urgent going on than what is on my Plex server or whether me and 5 friends play a UO shard. So it often comes down to who is on the Internet telling the most people they are doing something "wrong" so they get noticed.
In the 80's, we used to make our own Dungeon Master screens for AD&D and we would Xerox off some pictures from the book and paste them on the cardboard. If you did that now, and posted pictures of it on Facebook, you could get someone bitching about publishing someone else's artwork without permission.
So if you don't want to violate copyright and/or trademark law, you would have nothing to do with the client at all.
The server requires MUL files to load for maps, but these can be made from scratch with Centred+ and do not require anything from the client.
What I am not sure about is the MUL file format since I have not seen it anywhere else. Is that proprietary?
ClassicUO (as an example of a freely developed client by independent folks) does not contain UO Client files but it needs them to function...or files "like" them. Which files from the client? I don't know for sure...but the developer would.
To be clear, none of this can be marketed by you. I know you didn't mention anything about making any sort of profit...but I am just throwing it in there.
The things I am mentioning here are not things we need lawyers to spell out in black and white. These are the basics of what you can't do in regards to legality. You can't touch the UO client...it is that simple. You have to recreate all of the files required for something like ClassicUO to function (again, I am using ClassicUO as an example of a non-EA/OSI/Broadsword client...and there is also CrossUO).
So all of those graphics for gumps, tiles, and items belongs to EA (and perhaps some to Broadsword). You can recreate something similar, however.
If you also avoid EA's client, you don't only avoid IP issues but also software piracy issues for unauthorized access to the software.
Many of these issues come down to the world not being able to police the rules they laid out for virtual items. If we own a DVD and rip it to a file and put it on the Plex server...then we are in the wrong. It is just a matter of reading those agreements we accept...you know...the ones we just click OK to get past. We simply do these types of things because so far the world has taught us that there are other things more urgent going on than what is on my Plex server or whether me and 5 friends play a UO shard. So it often comes down to who is on the Internet telling the most people they are doing something "wrong" so they get noticed.
In the 80's, we used to make our own Dungeon Master screens for AD&D and we would Xerox off some pictures from the book and paste them on the cardboard. If you did that now, and posted pictures of it on Facebook, you could get someone bitching about publishing someone else's artwork without permission.
Dropgunner
Member
Djeryv is totally right with his analysis. A next generation UO is neither called Ultima Online nor uses it any of its assets or code. I am too tired to explain my thinking about that topic but Djeryv and Beefcake are welcome to at least join the Discord Server where I wrote alot of it down
Beefcake
Member
This would require maximum effort and extensive experience/knowledge of multiple coding languages, not to mention a team of dedicated coders.
I'm certain you're referring to translating C++ into C# for console and other languages for other platform use, which would take years of dedication v.s. the minimalist approach of circumventing copyright and IP. And doing so, a team would be better off just writing a new game entirely with referenced UO concepts.
There's major issues with such as well, particularly with the limitations of network hosting and lag, and I've never lagged in Ultima Online I don't know why. This isn't reasonable to however, because the code is already written just utilizing copyrighted particulars, and those are the particulars in question limiting the full re-sale and scaling productivity of hosting an ultima shard and the owner/owners profiting from their hard work.
This is the issue with a lot of emulation today, not just in Ultima Online, is the customization of any emulation requires hard work and dedication, and the owner/owners get nothing in return. You spend years building an awesome version of a game, through emulation, because you love the game or have nostalgia for the game or whatever, and get nothing in return if not a lawsuit and loss of income and prison and debt or essentially nothing beneficial.
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Dropgunner
Member
Before I go into your arguments I want to make clear that commercialization of every community game project leads mostly to the death of these projects (Legends of Aria, Quest of the Avatar)
It is chilling how many millions of code, years of workhours, effort and motivation just vanished because a Shard went down. On the same scale if you check out Github how many projects regarding UO are started, developed and being given up without a community to take on development. With a remake we have total control of having a shared repository and server listing. Even the fact to being able to release it on Steam for free is so immense that this cannot be understated. With that being said developing for UO is like having surgery with bandaid. With control of the code developers of shards can go bonkers. Singleplayer total conversion? No problem https://ultimaodyssey.blogspot.com/p/about-ultima-odyssey.html Hardcore roleplaying engine? Sure https://quintessenceonline.wordpress.com/about/ Ultima Online Battle royale? Why not https://zuluhotel.ca/devblog/battle-royale All this possibilities under one client, userfriendly? Just by finally making the step and starting to let UO die and think about what are his core principles. Why do we need explicitly an extensive experience of multiple languages which is by the way available since we are already more than 20 people now with very broad expertise (also networking
)Imagine if Raph Koster, Garriott, and the original developers would have the bandwidth and processing power we have today. In fact but with their same idea in mind how the game is designed in his aesthetics:
All of these pictures are made with voxels which look like pixel art: Mostly with MagicaVoxel.
In my opinion, this is the way to go. In theory, neural network algorithms on all the assets, animation and terrain can upscale their resolution, making 3d models out of it, voxelize it and then putting on style transfer to make it look like as hand-drawn as Ultima Online with better graphics and resolution. Every step has already been researched or implemented:
Art Design Deep Dive: Using a 3D pipeline for 2D animation in <i>Dead
"To make up for the lack of bandwidth and still deliver on quality, we had to find a pipeline that could give us great looking pixel art, without having to hand
With this technology, it is not just achievable to use the assets of UO but having much higher accessibility for the community doing assets and animations on your own.
But yes, it is in indeed not the minimalist approach, requires a dedicated medium-sized team of developers, open-source project management and funding. Not just that but a project structure in which future generations of gamers can take the torch and continue. But its not impossible as several projects are exactly doing that. Examples are Voids adrift and to give the best example: Unity Station which is finally breaking the curse of a successor of Spacestation 13 :
And you know what is awesome? I already established good relationships with both development teams and they are more than willing to give us advice and tips so that we don't have to do their mistakes twice.
Guys this community has the brain, manpower and coding experience to achieve this. Yes, not next year or in two or three or even four or five. But beefcake you said it the best: You all spend already more than a decade on a game which you can never get real credit for. The only thing that hinders us is not standing up together and to unite for the next generation of Ultima Online. I called my project MagnUm Opus in short MUO because first, it has the letters U and O in the right order for a hint where the roots are but most importantly, because a Magnum Opus is is a creation that is considered the greatest work of a person's career or to a work of outstanding creativity, skill, profundity, or workmanship.
If anyone got inspired by this you can join our Discord and I also just created a subreddit for MUO which is currently quite empty but will be changed in the future.
Reddit - Dive into anything
www.reddit.com
.Gentlemen, let us shoot for the stars and even if we crash I promise you it will be a fun hell of a ride. =)
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Can't speak for Raph Koster yet, but in Garriot's case, everything he made with those newer advantages was shit.
Apparently, neither does a quarter of a billion and 8 years of development.
Dropgunner
Member
Yes fair point and I took Quest for the Avatar specifically as an example why we should not wait for some developers making a game what they think is a true sequel to Ultima Online. I think UO became something different with its Shard community and scripting and the variety of different servers should be taken to account.
I dont really get what you mean by that.
Djeryv
Member
Your level of participation in this thread is truly top notch. It really answers the overall question of: "How difficult would this be to create a new game based on Ultima Online and the EMU's server files, specifically without Broadsword's IP?" Good work!
Garriott was not involved in that, he has not worked for EA for 2 decades now. Was speaking of Shroud of the Avatar, the crowd funded project he started, oversaw, and subsequently ran into the ground. Unfortunately, he's not Jed Clampett, and no oil sprung up from the impact crater.
Don't get me wrong, I deeply admire the man, he's a true visionary, but financial controls, proper management (someone to occasionally say "no"), and advance strategy/planning matter when making a game, you need more than just "vision". Regardless of how much money is thrown at a project.
Guys this is an age-old discussion lol... the legality of using Ultima Online’s client, associated files, and the contents therein is so ambiguous that you really need to read the “fine print” these days.
For older clients that precede the Enhanced Client you can emulate them to your hearts content. You can even use their files and the content therein because they all were created before the DMCA was a thing. EA never really cared anyway.
There was always an undocumented and unspoken symbiotic relationship between RunUO and EA... they could steal our ideas free of charge and we could host our servers. They never really went after anyone largely in part because we gave them ideas which they then took, marketed and sold rather successfully; high seas was a great example of that; in its basic form look back at the pirate systems on RunUO and you will see High Seas in it’s infancy.
Broadsword Entertainment, however does care, but they really haven’t gone after anyone because none of you can make a server that will put a dent in their pocket book. If you succeed at that then watch as Broadsword takes initiative from Blizzard and Sony Entertainment. The Enhanced Client and the classic client updates that began with the first Enhanced Client build are all covered by the DMCA so just be careful.
None of that means you can’t use their product, what it means is that you can’t sell subscriptions to play on your servers and you can’t sell items using their graphics in your web stores. Otherwise it’s all fair game unless you put a dent in their wallet. Then you will probably be made an example of if you are from North America and Canada.
If you are from Europe, Russia and anywhere in between then fuck the DMCA because while the United States thinks it can tell other countries what to do, the truth is copyright infringement is one of those things that gets a pass in most cases because other countries just don’t care about it; in other words US laws are only applicable in the United States so emulating this game with the newest of everything is acceptable.
Let’s take a look at the client clones that have been released; if you guys haven’t noticed, they are all coded by people living outside the jurisdiction of the US. If they lived in the US or Canada then they would be prosecuted because their clients are made for the sole purpose of using copyright files to play a copyrighted game under the protection of the DMCA.
However like it has been mentioned before if you lay low, make your server and host it, and allow people top play under the radar then no one cares. A lot of you enter into this hobby like it’s a competition or you are going to get rich off it; you won’t and it’s not a competition. It’s a great way to learn C# though
For older clients that precede the Enhanced Client you can emulate them to your hearts content. You can even use their files and the content therein because they all were created before the DMCA was a thing. EA never really cared anyway.
There was always an undocumented and unspoken symbiotic relationship between RunUO and EA... they could steal our ideas free of charge and we could host our servers. They never really went after anyone largely in part because we gave them ideas which they then took, marketed and sold rather successfully; high seas was a great example of that; in its basic form look back at the pirate systems on RunUO and you will see High Seas in it’s infancy.
Broadsword Entertainment, however does care, but they really haven’t gone after anyone because none of you can make a server that will put a dent in their pocket book. If you succeed at that then watch as Broadsword takes initiative from Blizzard and Sony Entertainment. The Enhanced Client and the classic client updates that began with the first Enhanced Client build are all covered by the DMCA so just be careful.
None of that means you can’t use their product, what it means is that you can’t sell subscriptions to play on your servers and you can’t sell items using their graphics in your web stores. Otherwise it’s all fair game unless you put a dent in their wallet. Then you will probably be made an example of if you are from North America and Canada.
If you are from Europe, Russia and anywhere in between then fuck the DMCA because while the United States thinks it can tell other countries what to do, the truth is copyright infringement is one of those things that gets a pass in most cases because other countries just don’t care about it; in other words US laws are only applicable in the United States so emulating this game with the newest of everything is acceptable.
Let’s take a look at the client clones that have been released; if you guys haven’t noticed, they are all coded by people living outside the jurisdiction of the US. If they lived in the US or Canada then they would be prosecuted because their clients are made for the sole purpose of using copyright files to play a copyrighted game under the protection of the DMCA.
However like it has been mentioned before if you lay low, make your server and host it, and allow people top play under the radar then no one cares. A lot of you enter into this hobby like it’s a competition or you are going to get rich off it; you won’t and it’s not a competition. It’s a great way to learn C# though
Djeryv
Member
The OP wants to make a new game, which is not an age old discussion because people don't broach the subject often. The types of discussion you think this is often is broached by those defending their freeshard's existence but the OP wants to make something new and is asking how difficult that may be.
Anything using the files of UO and the graphics of UO; including but not limited to the client executables does not constitute a new game but rather a derivative of UO.
That is all I was getting at. My thoughts still remain the same, whether making a free server or making a new game using UO as a foundation is still reinventing the wheel. OP would be better off getting on unity and using the uMMORPG engine.
Dropgunner
Member
I would give you the advice to take a look on Spacestation 13 and the effort of the community to remake it. In fact there were so many projects to achieve this goal it has become kind of a meme that there is a curse:
The curse of Space Station 13
It looks like a game from a bygone era. The 2D graphics are basic in the extreme. There are no animations to speak of. …
www.eurogamer.net
Its not bold to say that we have a similar "curse" and the current remake projects have a strong opposition from the server owners of the old SS13 running on BYOND. The reason is that they took alot of effort into coding their specific server properties and would need to redo it.
If anything comes out of this discussion and UO will see a similar project as Unitystation, Spacestation 14 or SS:3D I am pretty sure we will see similar opposition to it.
WizardTim
Member
Don't worry about her. Most of her posts contribute nothing of substance. I think one should look at Aria. Isn't what they basically did where they remade the game from scratch?
Dropgunner
Member
I just downloaded it this morning and played it for a few minutes. Community servers are locked behind a paywall and in my humble opinion they game looks worse than UO and the user interface isnt really an upgrade.
Dropgunner
Member
SS13 is basically open source so go for it.
github.com
GitHub - tgstation/tgstation: The /tg/station branch of SS13.
The /tg/station branch of SS13. Contribute to tgstation/tgstation development by creating an account on GitHub.
github.com
Djeryv
Member
Aria is its own game it appears...from just a Google search. It looks like someone is trying to create UO while using Aria. So here you have Aria which is a game that the group can sell but someone is setting up a server to play in Britannia. Again...I think that is how this relationship is working.
Dropgunner
Member
Its weirdly the opposite of the current situation with UO. You can play community servers for free by downloading the client and specific software but if you want to play the real deal you have to pay. With Legends of Aria you get official servers for free but you need a subscription for playing on servers from the community. Its weird.
WizardTim
Member
Here is a Steam review about Aria. Sounds like UO-inspired to me:
"I would not recommend this game because currently PVE and casual gameplay in dungeons are unplayeable: well coordinated major murder guilds repeatedly visit popular dungeons to slaughter newcomers, and uncoordinated casual players. The current ruleset promotes rampant murders, looting and a toxic environment. If you want to live a virtual life in a world so dehumanized where people play out their worse motivations then this game would be for you."
"I would not recommend this game because currently PVE and casual gameplay in dungeons are unplayeable: well coordinated major murder guilds repeatedly visit popular dungeons to slaughter newcomers, and uncoordinated casual players. The current ruleset promotes rampant murders, looting and a toxic environment. If you want to live a virtual life in a world so dehumanized where people play out their worse motivations then this game would be for you."
