Why I think Pay to Win is Bad.

[Hank]

< How I see Pay to Win >
Pay to Win is something that gives a player a starting or ending advantage over other players who do not choose to pay. Whether it be +1 stat on a piece of gear or instant skill increase. I also feel that all things should be obtainable through regular play without paying but that is not what this post is about.

Pay to win is not Cosmetics, Fluff, Deco and or things that serve no other purpose then to look pretty or cool.

< Servers in General >
I don't think it is wise to have a server where people can pay real money to get instant skill or gear. That otherwise players would have to achieve and earn by playing the game. It makes areas feel less populated and directly has an effect on the person who plays credit card warrior psychologically.

It enables them to accept servers who are pay to win and say that all other servers who don't give them stuff are bad. Pay to win servers have been a blight on legitimate and quality 'work for what you get' emulation servers since the beginning.

< Youth of Today >
"But I don't have as much time to spend playing as I use to because I have responsibilities now"

lets say for example sake you're a kid or young adult again. You have lots of time to put into a game and you do. I presume you've spent a fair share of your time in a video game in the past so you know the feeling. You work hard for your skill and gear. Exploring the world and working your way through the hardest dungeons. You feel a deep sense of accomplishment and you rightly so have bragging rights for your time and effort put in.

Now lets say your parent(s) or mentors are playing that same game but instead of investing the amount of time that you do they simply pull out their money and instantly have the same pixels that you do without spending all that time. It would occur to me that this method is teaching young people bad habits on how to get things.

If you don't have time to play a game as much as you want, well that sucks. But don't promote things like paying vs. time because it is miss leading to today's youth. They will miss out of all the cool experiences one gets when they dedicate that much time to something. Often time taking shortcuts cheapens the experience for the user. So they move onto something else because they've ruined their own fun by taking a shortcut.

< Closing >
Pay to win is so much deeper then just your experience and desire to play "now". It is something that is changing the way people play games now a days and into the future.

This is just something that I whipped up after having a short chat with a person on another forum. I figured I would share it and see how you all feel about 'Pay to win' in video games.

Please feel free to share your thoughts, ideas, concerns, etc

 

[Sorthious]

I've been arguing that for years but it normally falls on deaf ears. Unfortunately my shard has items that would be considered 'Pay to Win' but over the last several years i've been trying to reverse that tread. We've introduced items in game that are actualy better than donation weapons/gear but you actually have to work to get them. I don't feel like it would be right for me to take away current items that players have so I try to find workarounds.

When making things for donation, which helps pay for our server/provider, I try to now focus on things that won't impact gameplay but, rather, have more of an asthetic value. It's hard to find a good balance and of course you will always have those that complain about how its not fair that they don't have the time to do a quest, or don't have time to get/make better gear. They will also begrudge those that do have more time to play.

I watch a lot of the younger kids/adults play games and at the first sign of difficulty they are off to find cheat codes to get past a level, solve a puzzle,etc. Back in the day, there were no cheat codes to be had, unless you bought a book or called a HintLine and I was damned if I was gonna do that. It's much more rewarding to be able to say "I beat the game, solved the puzzle, or cleared the quest" without cheating/instructions/hints."

 

[RedBeard]

2 cents = building a character is also a fun and rewarding experience, meanwhile many players try to rush through it or use short-cuts[annoying macroing]. They actually miss the point of this type of game. Between deco items, storage bonuses, and bonus land any shard should be able to generate cash flow to support the game. You just need to make the game more strict instead of more lax. Too many shards out there that are grossly unbalanced and lean more towards funded gameplay instead of a more achievement driven scenario.
I think the game can be more rewarding to groups of players at times, which was an intentional focus originally in this game. I believe a lot of people want to solo or stay in smaller groups and rather have: "gear of the gods" to accomplish this, rather then join guilds and larger groups. Crafting was developed for individual achievement along with other activities. Players just need to evolve towards the games difficulty, instead of the game devolving towards them.
On my shard all my custom stuff is in Felucca and we don't offer Weh-burgers or French-cries! WhatUp

 

[dragon slayer2]

Lot of games any more all about you paying for content or other crap to have in game... I think there should be two options for those items you can buy

One option you should beable to get it in game if found but its rare.

Second option you buy it..

this way people in-game don't lose advantage over the person that bought it.

or a third option said bought item should be little less powerful then in-game version that worked your ass off for.

 

[Sorthious]

One option you should beable to get it in game if found but its rare.
Second option you buy it..
this way people in-game don't lose advantage over the person that bought it.

If you

worked your ass off

for it, and someone buys it, people in-game who can't/won't pay for it
are at a disadvantage.

Option 3 is the best option imo, but even then if I were starting a new shard with donation items, I would only have donation items that have little or no impact on gameplay or having an even playing field. Really, the whole point of the donations are to keep a shard running(pay the light bill as it were), not to make a profit.

 

[Po0ka]

Clearly asking for donations or even "forcing(/suggesting)" your players to donate is bad.
Technically if someone want to run a server, they must atleast posses the funds required to do it.
On my side i could host a server with 200 players with no donation, and it would not hurt me to do 0$ income, as this is a free emulator, for a paid game...

A donation is a gift given by physical or legal persons, typically for charitable purposes and/or to benefit a cause.
Totally legit source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation

 

[Sorthious]

Not everyone can afford to do that and thus donations are the only means with which to continue. If a person is doing it solely for profit then I can see an issue with it. If the funds donated are taken and used to upgrade servers, upgrade connection speed, etc., then I don't see a problem with it. It is a communtiy supporting their shard and ensuring that a place they love continues to strive. Wouldn't you consider that a cause?

 

[Hank]

A donation is a gift given by physical or legal persons, typically for charitable purposes and/or to benefit a cause.
Totally legit source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donation

In fact when money is given to a shard it is actually a Tip, not a Donation. Donations are things that people can write off on their taxes. Like donating to a church for example.

I wanna just say this thread is meant to be about pay to win, not players donating/tipping a server. People are provided with a FREE server to play on the least they can do is give thanks if possible by supporting the server with a tip. I have no bad feelings about players tipping a server. It's when said server gives the player advantages that otherwise would not be given to them causing an imbalance on the starting and or ending playing field for all players.

 

[Po0ka]

Yea true... I've been off track a little

 

[Sorthious]

The shard I'm on, admittedly, does have items that give advantage but we don't entirely leave non-donating players out. They are given a Vet Reward ticket, which they can use to get Donation Items, once a year. I definitely see the issue, however it isn't my shard. But my main issue would be with those who don't really care about the game or the players and are just looking for an easy way to pocket some cash.

 

[dragon slayer2]

You have to pay taxes on both tipping and donations if your not reporting them any one can turn u into the irs and they will come after you either way.. most of this people have no proof what there tips/donations are going too.. I have being turning in websites left and right on this because im sick of emus and servers wanting donations/tips for there shit its a free emu post to be free from start...

again tho this post to be pay to win my bad

if your going to donate money donate to a charity that needs it not some one that wants there wallet fat..

 

[Sorthious]

.. most of this people have no proof what there tips/donations are going too..

I think you are painting all shards that accept donations with too broad a brush. Just because they accept donations doesnt make them bad.

 

[Praxiiz]

While I agree in principle that a game should not be pay to win, I don't think that paying for content is a bad thing. Dungeons and Dragons online is a really good example of this. They sell content in the form of mini-adventures which you can buy for a couple bucks each. You purchase them once and you get permanent access to them. You can get items that aren't seen anywhere else in the game in the mini-adventures, but they are not overpowered compared to the regular content.

Some Free-to-Play games grant you access to base races and classes, but expect you to pay to get access to any additional ones. The additional classes and races are typically balanced along side the rest of the classes, but they are premium content.

For a free game, this is a great way to bring in income and pay for the level designers, story writers, graphic artists, developers, and the slew of other people it takes to create the content and maintain the game. At the end of the day, if a game company cant pay their employees, they will leave. Even if the company manages to keep the servers running, there would be no additional content being made for the game. No new content generally means players will get bored and leave.

 

[Praxiiz]

You have to pay taxes on both tipping and donations if your not reporting them any one can turn u into the irs and they will come after you either way.. most of this people have no proof what there tips/donations are going too..

This only really applies to shards run in the United States.

I have being turning in websites left and right on this because im sick of emus and servers wanting donations/tips for there shit its a free emu post to be free from start...

The IRS isn't going to spend a lot of time investigating someone based on thin evidence. For example, on the form used to report someone for tax violations, it contains the following instruction:

4. If your report involves unreported income, indicate the year(s) and the dollar amount(s).

And on the hotline webpage:

If a call is viewed as phony, then the information will be disregarded as false.

They aren't going to spend a lot of resources investigating someone if there is little or no evidence of tax violations. In fact, I bet by reporting them, you waste more of our tax dollars than the shard would have paid even if they didn't report the income (which you have no direct proof because you can't see their tax forms).

most of this people have no proof what there tips/donations are going too

And even less proof that they aren't being reported on their taxes.

 

[dragon slayer2]

Each state has there own irs have to do is contact the state one and they will look into it, don't matter if u have proof or not.. As when I was a manager at place in town my boss got fined for not paying texts on tips/donations it was a small local business he started so you can set here and say all this but that's really not true even if u got it off there website once reported they do look into it. and they do start contacting other authorities if its out of country not so much but if the donations are coming into the country just because the shard is ran out of country don't mean there pay pal account is.

 

[dmurphy]

It doesn't really matter to a huge portion of people running shards as they are not based in the US. I know I can take tax deductible tip's from whomever I please to keep a service running. So long as there is no profit made then there is no tax due. Any excess funds can sit in an account somewhere so long as it is only used for future expenses. Take ServUO. There was a few nice people who donated in the past few weeks, this added up to more than what the costs were for the month so the excess is now sitting in an account ready to be used for the inevitable month when there is very little donations.

Now, someone making a profit and spending it on personal belongings is another matter. Again though, here at least there is a point where you have to register and submit these earnings for taxation. I don't believe the vast majority of shards out there will ever reach this cap so again, it does not matter for them.

Back on topic though.

I think if a server would like to take donations then that is their prerogative. I find it tasteless though to add in pay to win features though. Rewarding those with more disposable income than others by giving them an edge over others who cannot afford it is tactless.

Donation perks should never allow someone to gain an advantage over another player. Sure, give them a little boost, but by no means should whatever you give them outdo any other non paying version of the item in the game.

Fluff items are a great way to reward players without causing an imbalance. Give a player all the hues they like, it doesn't hurt the economy or cause other players to become irate due to a n inflated advantage over them.

In the end of the day it is a delicate subject and requires a lot of experimentation to get right.

 

[Tyrone Bigums]

I have been on both sides of this. I was on a shard that I've spent quite a lot of money on items that made the game a lot easier at the end of the day, bought OP pets and other items. Now I didn't mind it just because I had the extra cash lying around and noticed that when I did spend it some of the donations were to get a better server and to get premium spots on voting sites. Downside is I watched someone drop 3k in one day and think they would be able to take on the shard. We proceeded to drop him over and over and he eventually left the shard.

I don't like the idea of having stuff that are donation only that are "game changers" but at the same time I did like the OP pets.

I do see it as if you have a shard and the costs to run it are minimal I don't see a problem with allowing donations. As long as they don't change the game play like crazy. Someone that has been playing a year shouldn't be out done by someone who has $ to blow. I fully agree that pay to win is lame but with the generation growing up today anyone that has $$ feels they are superior hands down. Not everyone has this mentality, don't get me wrong, but the ones feeding into Hollywood do think like this or have from what I have seen personally. There's countless times I was trying to win a top prize at an event and was told by another player I'll just buy the items because I have to work for a living blah blah blah, as if everyone that plays in their spare time doesn't have a job...

$ will never buy PvP skills, no matter how good you think your gear is but when you sell OP items that doesn't have a good balance is where I would say lies a problem.

 

[Enroq]

I can't remember the last server I saw that was pay to win.. Most servers make their money off offering things like ethereals, decoration, special hues, as gratuity for donations. None of which really effects combat.

 

[Praxiiz]

Each state has there own irs have to do is contact the state one and they will look into it, don't matter if u have proof or not.. As when I was a manager at place in town my boss got fined for not paying texts on tips/donations it was a small local business he started so you can set here and say all this but that's really not true even if u got it off there website once reported they do look into it. and they do start contacting other authorities if its out of country not so much but if the donations are coming into the country just because the shard is ran out of country don't mean there pay pal account is.

Again, you are just assuming they have done something wrong. They take donations and have a PayPal account. That doesn't mean they cheat on their taxes.

How many shards have you actually, no bs, reported? How was it done - phone, form, email, in person? What do you tell them when they ask you what evidence you have?

I think it says more about you than it does the shard you reported. They maybe in perfect compliance with tax law and you try to cause them grief just because you don't agree with how they run their shard. You just assume they are in the wrong. Yes, the software is free, but so is Apache, Linux and a ton of other open source projects. There are lots of companies and individuals making money off all these programs in one way or another. Do you report them as well for taking donations/tips?

 

[Praxiiz]

I have being turning in websites left and right on this because im sick of emus and servers wanting donations/tips for there shit its a free emu post to be free from start...

U Mad Bro?

 

[Praxiiz]

Fluff items are a great way to reward players without causing an imbalance. Give a player all the hues they like, it doesn't hurt the economy or cause other players to become irate due to a n inflated advantage over them.

I like this in concept although I've never been one to buy them myself. I do think I'd pay for extra inventory space though.

 

[Enroq]

Interestingly enough I was watching Bob Costas on Real Time the other night and he was talking about the inability of people to hold two truths at the same time.


I agree with Hank. What? Yeah, pay to win is horrible. That's a truth.

On the other side of the coin that is reality: Money gets things done. That's a truth.

The question is and always will be how do you morally and ethically get things done.

 

[TheDoc]

When I ran my last shard I got quite a few donations that didn't have any reward whatsoever. It was made known that we used ALL of the money for things like hosting, new graphics, etc. We also made sure our players knew that they didn't get looked down on for not donating, that it was a
simple thanks from our players to keep the shard up if they decided to donate.

Pay to win completely ruins a shard in my humble opinion. I've played on these types of servers too.

I've always thought that if you listen to your players, keep great staff members that don't cheat or disrespect players, and make sure that you're not pocketing donations... they will roll in. That's the whole point of freeshards in my opinion. It is a hobby for me to learn programming while enjoying a game I love and making new friends. My next shard will follow the same concept. All money donated goes into keeping the server up and promoting it. There's no better reward to me than creating something and having your players comment on how they like it.

 

[Punkte]

May have chimed in late to this discussion.

Being a current freeshard owner myself, there's definitely a lot more than server cost that goes into paying to host a server.
Truthfully, the successful ones have to invest a lot of money into getting a freeshard to a state where there's hundreds of players online.

Now of course, there's a a grey line between setting up donation shops for pay 2 win and other ones.

We ourselves, have a donation shop that we strictly rely on "Convenience", aside from donating for skills. We don't do that on our shard.
What we do have is a large assortment of aesthetic items, pet bonding deeds, different hued clothing, some layered items, named "Thanks for supporting UO Shadow Age" items, etc. The only items we have properties on, is random small ones, like 2% resist on a layered mask, or ones with nightsight on them. We also have clothing bless deeds and a few other things that just add a convenience factor to playing the game.

Am I personally against a pay to win? Absolutely. Why? Because it ruins the game that we are "building" for people. We fully expect everyone to take the few days it takes to train up a character, get the gear they need, participate in the systems we spent days and months building for them, all to provide a unique and cool experience.

As far as donations themselves go, IMHO, server's without donations, you can see a clear difference between the dedication of the developers.
In our instance, we pay most of our developers because they are spending countless hours providing an experience to players.
For the owners that can make a buck or two by running a freeshard, who cares? I can tell you I work a 40 hours a week job, and put almost 60 hours a week on the shard itself. Would I do it if I invested all my money, didn't take donations, and didn't see anything back for it? Probably not as much as I do it now. It would be more fun hobby for me than a goal of mine.
Goals are much more powerful than hobbies.

Also, most bigger freeshards would be required to eventually pay taxes, as paypal reports to the IRS after 20,000 has been made and 200 transactions have occured.

Starting in 2011, PayPal is required by the IRS to report the sales of goods and services for customers who, in a single year receive:

• More than $20,000, AND
• 200 or more payments.

The new IRS 6050W changes apply to all payment providers, including PayPal. This includes payments received after January 1, 2011, with the first reports sent to the IRS in early 2012.

Now, we spend a large portion of that money advertising, paying the developers, server hosting costs, etc.

It's no small amount for a server trying to be able to competitively host over 1,000 players.

So, my stance on it?
Donations are essential, Pay-2-Win Donation Shops ruin the gameplay experience.

Cheers,

Punkte